Their reference to verses that say men are worse than unbelievers if they don't support their families really set me off. For two years my husband was sahd while I worked and he did a fantastic job! In fact, lately, I've been thinking, better than I am doing.
John, great question. Seriously, so few people would challenge someone like that these days. I care what the scripture says. I think there is a clear line between a man who is lazy and doesn't want to care for his family and a man who cares for his family by taking the best route for said family. I guess it's the over all picture that should be looked at and not a present situation. The atitude of a man. (Forgive me, I know what I want to say, but not exactly how to say it). And as I said, I don't object to the scripture so much as their use of it. What does it profit? What was the setting for this? (gtg, kids)
Thia, how can a husband that stays at home watching the kids while his wife goes out and brings home the bread, helping her fulfill her calling to be a worker at home as stated in Titus 2?
I feel that this issue is obviously one that can quickly turn emotional. I believe the Bible is clear that women are to be workers at home, caring, raising, and teaching their children. (the list could go on!) The husband is to provide for his wife and children.
Thia, I have no doubt that your husband was great in taking care of your children...but that fact alone does not make it Biblical. I believe what is best for every family is that mom stays at home and through prayer and God's help, becomes the woman that she is called to be. This is what the best route for a family is.
I like that the preacher is laying it out and telling people what he expects of them. I like that he's going to scripture.
I'm not sure I agree with him that this is disciplinary issue and not a matter of conscience.
Not sure at all. I've had friends who thought it was sinful to use birth control and sinful to send your kids to school and sinful for wives to work. I believe there's no need for birth control, it's wise to not send your children to school, and wise for wives to stay home. I've never felt comfortable with telling another woman she was sinful for working outside the home.
I do feel for them. I do see them so tired and overwhelmed and with no time to study scripture and the whole family is kind of stretched and stressed and I want to say, "sell the big house, get rid of the extra car, cut the expensive private schools and the tennis lessons and the ballet lessons and quit work."
I think they suffer for working outside the home and attaining more and more. Even if they are just trying to make ends meet. I've not worked since the kids were born and my husband was a quadriplegic who didn't work and God still made our ends meet.
So, yes, I'd like to see women liberated from this working outside the home mentality. But I'm not sure they are sinning. I'm not sure I can say working outside the home is sinful the way I can say having an abortion is sinful.
Sorry for carrying on. I've just never heard a pastor come out with this stance. It's quite bold and quite interesting. I wonder if it will catch on.
Sally, I don't think he was saying that women working outside the home would result in church discipline. Instead, I think instead he was saying that a man who doesn't work and stays home while his wife goes out and gets brings home the bread...those men will be disciplined. I think they are correct in disciplining men who allow their roles in marriage to be exchanged.
I thought more about this, John, and I did realize that's what he was saying--stay at home dad's are sinning.
I think he's not proven his case from scripture. I think that if a man wanted his wife to work while he stayed home and took care of the kids that would be in his realm of authority to decide.
I think the church might be overstepping her authority to tell a man how to provide for his own family. He must provide, but if he and his wife decide that she's a lousy teacher but she's a good nurse and she can make plenty of money nursing while he can do a great job of homeschooling the kids, I'm not sure scripture says they can't do that.
I hate to have the church usurp a husband's authority just as much as I hate to have a wife usurp it.
Bottom line? Is it sin? If his family is in order, well cared for, happy, being raised in he fear and admonition of the Lord, what grounds would we stand on to call it sin?
Because wives are to be busy at home? That passage is telling women to be obedient and kind and sober-minded and hard-working and loving to their husbands and children. I don't see the "workers at home" phrase as a command that they never leave the house. I don't see it as a demand that never work anywhere except the house. I see it is a command to them to not be lazy. When you're home, you work. The command is "quit flitting around getting in trouble and get busy at home," I think, rather than, "quit working outside the home and get busy at home."
At least that's my best guess at the moment. Perhaps my mind will change on this as I mature.
I can say for sure that a woman working outside the home faces all kinds of stress and temptation she wouldn't face if she worked at home. I can say I think a man is unwise to have his wife work outside the home. And yet, I a, not convinced it's a sin. I'm not convinced it's a reason for church discipline.
I've been thinking about this on and off the last week or so and I think Sally has said, in part, what I've been trying to articulate. I don't think it's a matter of church discipline (completely) b/c I think there are many stories. I don't think it's always a matter of sin either. It goes back to the man's heart I think.
I think it is a matter of the heart too. However, we need to be careful in trusting what the heart can be decietfully wicked. I do think that this can be grounds for church discipline. I'm not sure it would always be grounds for church discipline. My concern with this conversation though, is that our opinions on this matter are far too often shaped by what the world sees as acceptable and right as compared to what the scriptures say is right. What's really funny about this whole post is that I was actually attempting to post this to my own blog and I didn't realized that the computer was signed in under Shannon's account and it got posted to her blog instead! So...this post was never supposed to be here on her blog!
Also...I think it would be good here to identify what church discipline is. Church discipline doesn't mean kicking someone out of the church. Sally pointed out that a woman working outside the home faces all sorts of temptations and stresses. She also says that it is "unwise". I would think that church discipline in this sort of situation would first be to lovingly point out the dangers and the lack of wisdom in running a household in this manner. The leaders should quietly and lovingly help the family move to a more wise and healthy sort of family structure. How the husband responds to this sort of counsel would determine if more discipline is necessary. I don't think that Driscoll is saying that if your a stay at home dad, that they are going to get kicked out of the church.
Thia, I'm having a difficult time understanding your point. Are you saying that church discipline should never take place in any circumstance? Shannon is fine with us discussing things here. Sally, since you did admit that there are temptations that women face if they don't work at home, what does scripture tell us to do with temptation?
I will admit here that I am tainted by the local church experience. We're in a dry spot as far as having a good place to worship and fellowship. A church that spends thousands of dollars on a wide screen projector set up, but doesn't help those in need; well, I'd have a hard time receiving such "discipline" from them.
16 comments:
Their reference to verses that say men are worse than unbelievers if they don't support their families really set me off. For two years my husband was sahd while I worked and he did a fantastic job! In fact, lately, I've been thinking, better than I am doing.
So Thia, you really don't care what 1 Timothy 5:8 says? Why
John, great question. Seriously, so few people would challenge someone like that these days. I care what the scripture says. I think there is a clear line between a man who is lazy and doesn't want to care for his family and a man who cares for his family by taking the best route for said family. I guess it's the over all picture that should be looked at and not a present situation. The atitude of a man. (Forgive me, I know what I want to say, but not exactly how to say it). And as I said, I don't object to the scripture so much as their use of it. What does it profit? What was the setting for this?
(gtg, kids)
Thia, how can a husband that stays at home watching the kids while his wife goes out and brings home the bread, helping her fulfill her calling to be a worker at home as stated in Titus 2?
I feel that this issue is obviously one that can quickly turn emotional. I believe the Bible is clear that women are to be workers at home, caring, raising, and teaching their children. (the list could go on!) The husband is to provide for his wife and children.
Thia, I have no doubt that your husband was great in taking care of your children...but that fact alone does not make it Biblical. I believe what is best for every family is that mom stays at home and through prayer and God's help, becomes the woman that she is called to be. This is what the best route for a family is.
Wow. Hot issue.
I like that the preacher is laying it out and telling people what he expects of them. I like that he's going to scripture.
I'm not sure I agree with him that this is disciplinary issue and not a matter of conscience.
Not sure at all. I've had friends who thought it was sinful to use birth control and sinful to send your kids to school and sinful for wives to work. I believe there's no need for birth control, it's wise to not send your children to school, and wise for wives to stay home. I've never felt comfortable with telling another woman she was sinful for working outside the home.
I do feel for them. I do see them so tired and overwhelmed and with no time to study scripture and the whole family is kind of stretched and stressed and I want to say, "sell the big house, get rid of the extra car, cut the expensive private schools and the tennis lessons and the ballet lessons and quit work."
I think they suffer for working outside the home and attaining more and more. Even if they are just trying to make ends meet. I've not worked since the kids were born and my husband was a quadriplegic who didn't work and God still made our ends meet.
So, yes, I'd like to see women liberated from this working outside the home mentality. But I'm not sure they are sinning. I'm not sure I can say working outside the home is sinful the way I can say having an abortion is sinful.
Sorry for carrying on. I've just never heard a pastor come out with this stance. It's quite bold and quite interesting. I wonder if it will catch on.
Sally, I don't think he was saying that women working outside the home would result in church discipline. Instead, I think instead he was saying that a man who doesn't work and stays home while his wife goes out and gets brings home the bread...those men will be disciplined. I think they are correct in disciplining men who allow their roles in marriage to be exchanged.
I have not dropped this, just inundated with life...
I thought more about this, John, and I did realize that's what he was saying--stay at home dad's are sinning.
I think he's not proven his case from scripture. I think that if a man wanted his wife to work while he stayed home and took care of the kids that would be in his realm of authority to decide.
I think the church might be overstepping her authority to tell a man how to provide for his own family. He must provide, but if he and his wife decide that she's a lousy teacher but she's a good nurse and she can make plenty of money nursing while he can do a great job of homeschooling the kids, I'm not sure scripture says they can't do that.
I hate to have the church usurp a husband's authority just as much as I hate to have a wife usurp it.
Bottom line? Is it sin? If his family is in order, well cared for, happy, being raised in he fear and admonition of the Lord, what grounds would we stand on to call it sin?
Because wives are to be busy at home? That passage is telling women to be obedient and kind and sober-minded and hard-working and loving to their husbands and children. I don't see the "workers at home" phrase as a command that they never leave the house. I don't see it as a demand that never work anywhere except the house. I see it is a command to them to not be lazy. When you're home, you work. The command is "quit flitting around getting in trouble and get busy at home," I think, rather than, "quit working outside the home and get busy at home."
At least that's my best guess at the moment. Perhaps my mind will change on this as I mature.
I can say for sure that a woman working outside the home faces all kinds of stress and temptation she wouldn't face if she worked at home. I can say I think a man is unwise to have his wife work outside the home. And yet, I a, not convinced it's a sin. I'm not convinced it's a reason for church discipline.
I've been thinking about this on and off the last week or so and I think Sally has said, in part, what I've been trying to articulate. I don't think it's a matter of church discipline (completely) b/c I think there are many stories. I don't think it's always a matter of sin either. It goes back to the man's heart I think.
I think it is a matter of the heart too. However, we need to be careful in trusting what the heart can be decietfully wicked. I do think that this can be grounds for church discipline. I'm not sure it would always be grounds for church discipline. My concern with this conversation though, is that our opinions on this matter are far too often shaped by what the world sees as acceptable and right as compared to what the scriptures say is right. What's really funny about this whole post is that I was actually attempting to post this to my own blog and I didn't realized that the computer was signed in under Shannon's account and it got posted to her blog instead! So...this post was never supposed to be here on her blog!
Also...I think it would be good here to identify what church discipline is. Church discipline doesn't mean kicking someone out of the church. Sally pointed out that a woman working outside the home faces all sorts of temptations and stresses. She also says that it is "unwise". I would think that church discipline in this sort of situation would first be to lovingly point out the dangers and the lack of wisdom in running a household in this manner. The leaders should quietly and lovingly help the family move to a more wise and healthy sort of family structure. How the husband responds to this sort of counsel would determine if more discipline is necessary. I don't think that Driscoll is saying that if your a stay at home dad, that they are going to get kicked out of the church.
If "the church" was the way God meant church to be, I would agree, but as it isn't, I have a hard time agreeing with the discipline thing.
Does Shannon want us to shush and take this elsewhere?
Thia, I'm having a difficult time understanding your point. Are you saying that church discipline should never take place in any circumstance? Shannon is fine with us discussing things here.
Sally, since you did admit that there are temptations that women face if they don't work at home, what does scripture tell us to do with temptation?
I will admit here that I am tainted by the local church experience. We're in a dry spot as far as having a good place to worship and fellowship.
A church that spends thousands of dollars on a wide screen projector set up, but doesn't help those in need; well, I'd have a hard time receiving such "discipline" from them.
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